Let me start out by saying this may come off as a bit of a rant...but it's my blog and I will rant if I want to :P
I am a professional business person in Second Life. I own businesses, manage and promote other people's businesses and make my living in Second Life. So for me, SL is serious and not play time. To me SL is not a game or recreation... it's my livelihood.
That being said, I understand that for most SL is recreational and they don't have a need to take it all serious like that. However, there are others who do have businesses in Second Life, for example, clothing designers, musicians, home builders, venue owners, scripters, land barons, etc.
These people pay for services, sell goods, get paid for services, land or goods and make deals. These are business transactions!!! If you and I agree to terms and conditions, I expect you to live up to those terms and conditions. I totally understand that people get sick, work goes into mandatory overtime, and real life happens but I don't understand when I wait for a month for a person to live up to their end of the deal and they are off having fun in SL like that deal means nothing.
If I hire a musician, I expect them to be on time, do PR and marketing for the show, be sober, mention my venue tip jar and put on the best show they possibly can. In return I am expected to pay them, do PR and marketing for the show, mention a few times over the course of the hour to the crowd to tip the musician and make sure things run as smooth as possible. How hard is this concept???? I'm paying for your services and expect things in return... I don't care if you pack my sim or only 10 people show up, it's a business agreement! The same goes for venues...when I book someone at a venue, I expect certain things like, list them in events a couple days before the show, promote the show in SL to groups and/or to social media and during the show make sure it runs smooth and promote my artist.If you rent land and don't live up to the covenant that the land owner has set forth, you are subject to losing your land. If you don't pay your tiers...you will lose your land.
It's a simple concept really... it is a contract... I do X and you do Z and we both live up to the terms of the contract. WHY DON'T PEOPLE GET THAT?????
I understand that a lot of people are in SL as a hobby or pass-time, however, if you do business of any sort in SL then you NEED to take that business seriously or don't do business!!!
If you have gotten this far I want to thank you for reading my rant. Please feel free to comment if you agree or disagree because we are all entitled to our opinion.
I agree Brandy and this is your blog so if people dont like they dont have to read it. But a contract is a contract whether in RL or in SL. I know RL businesses that use SL in their business. Universities use SL for classes. So if you do business in SL it really is just like business in RL, KEEP YOUR CONTRACT! (Serina)
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree with you more. Venues are closing left and right and i don't like to play at poorly run places. I think a performer should always be there at the very least 15 minutes prior to their shows and appreciate the opportunities that we have to play at good ones. This means encouraging everyone to tip the venue several times during the show and making certain that you give them a healthy dose of linden love yourself
ReplyDeleteWell said. I am a professional, and my biggest problem in SL is others' lack of professionalism - or even common courtesy. I understand that most people don't make a living in SL, but if you're just there to play, then don't start a business or run a venue. In SL we may start our dream business and it may not be something we have RL experience with, but that's no excuse to not bring a professional *attitude* of polite interactions, hard work, and living up to commitments.
ReplyDeleteI once witnessed the manager of one of the grid's best musicians say that SL isn't "real business" and that she doesn't take it seriously. I was appalled. This is an artist with the potential for RL fame, who could be doing so much more with a manager who took the time to market him and get his name out there beyond SL. The SL music scene's own worst enemy is itself, it seems...the belief that this isn't real and can't translate to RL when the truth is that it CAN.
I agree totally. This is the reason so many people are leaving SL. I always wonder if they treat their RL jobs as sloppy as they are doing their SL ones when things happen like not showing up on time, not promoting.
ReplyDeleteWe enjoy the live music in SL, it's the only way we get to hear this sort of thing, sadly same for most people. SL is not just a playground, it's a learning area, business area and people have to realize that if they are in business or performing.
People may not like to hear the ranting, but you are totally right and I say, put it out there and let them know. This is your job, you are doing your part, now they need to be doing theirs.
Yea, as a RL employer of people, they are as sloppy.
DeleteAlways have a standby. Much like theatre has the notion of an understudy in case the lead goes ill or doesn't make it to the show, you keep a standing roster of freelance artists who are on call for those times when a scheduled artist is not available (regardless of reason). In order to actually *become* a scheduled artist, you have to first spend X amount of time on that standby roster to earn it.
ReplyDeleteAnd that, is a good way to find out ahead of time how serious people are about obligations in Second Life :) The more reliable a person is in your standby roster, the more they should be considered for a scheduled roster instead. But you should have a short laundry list of performers on your standby list so at least one will always likely be available in a pinch to prove themselves worthy of being on the scheduled roster :)
ALL I can say to the above posts..at least those I was able to read tonight..is BRAVO! I am so glad I found this blog..smiles...is nice to know there are others that look at SL this way..I've had to educate a few of my closest recently..on how much SL is NOT a game..at least not to me..but my lively hood..and very serious to me indeed..as I spend anywhere from 32 to 44 hours a week DJ'ing at my high points..I know there are some in circles that do not take DJ's seriously..as artists but some of us actually do extensive research on the sets we put together..that takes alot of time and energy to put on a good show and not be just a flesh covered juke box...smiles..which some sadly are..and those same ones are the ones that give the ones like myself a bad name..work ethic wise..sloppy no shows..etc..all of the above..I would not say that I'm a prima donna..as far as the field goes..I do however expect certain things in return..I work mostly solo..no host..I have a host at only one venue..I do my own notices and promotions..I've found I would rather be solo then have a bad host..I've also found that alot of the hosts in SL don't want really to work that hard for their tips..IE: putting out notices above and beyond the venues groups..to me I expect my host..if any to put a notice out to every group that Venue is profiled..SL.COM etc...my personal dj group is a courtesy..not expected..but it behooves the host to do so just to get more ppl to possibly get more tips..but again most do not take the job that seriously..smiles..well..this was supposed to be a short post..so I'll end it here..with an AGAIN BRAVO!! Brandy and the above..Thank You..Larai
ReplyDeleteas a live musician, it's even more soul crushing to be treated as a 'flesh colored jukebox' - we have to LEARN the song on the ol' biological computer... can't just download... and when you've got your own originals, to be constantly asked to play other people's songs is just heartbreaking, and can really make a gig painful.
DeleteINDEED!! & Bravo!!...You have my applause for performing..and would love to see a show sometime..I have the utmost respect for the live performers that play their OWN music in SL..not to mention that "biological computer"..<<suffers from CRS ..So to me what ya'll do is awesome..and to be commended...I'd Much rather see original material from an artist ..then a "cover band" doing someone else's music..and yes..to be treated as a "flesh covered jukebox" and be a live performer that works to perfect their art takes YEARS of time..not just a few hours that dj's spend..even though some of us may do some research on the artists that we spin..and make commentary..it's deff not the same as a live performance. As an aside..I would love to see LL do a lil more in the way of giving the live performers their section..as they do..under Live Entertainment..There is a major difference between a live entertainer..and a Live MUSICIAN...While Dj's can be entertaining..that is NOT the same as being a Live Musician..Thank you for your reply
DeleteYou tell 'em girl. As a RL businessperson, I get pretty tired of the unprofessionalism some people show in SL. It lowers the reputation of the whole SL music scene in the eyes of the general public, especially the RL music business (who are not impressed with us). The truth hurts baby! You don't have to be the world's greatest musician or have the greatest venue, just show up for your shows, it would really help.
ReplyDeleteI second that Damaris. However, I think we have a lack of encouragement or push for striving to be a better musician or venue. Showing up is a given in my book. I strive to be the best venue I can be, the artists are picked because of their quality. They should stive to be the best as I do. WE all should expect that from each other. If we did, we might do away with tips only venues and horrible artists with the mysterious huge following. Break the cycle of PC reviews and critiques. Call it as it is and demand quality! Jesus, where did that soap box come form again. I'm done. =\
DeleteSL's live music scene has been exploding and expanding for a few years now, and as sediment falls to the bottom of the stream, so does cream rise to the top - performers that can't pull in audiences get discouraged, as do venues that are poorly run- all we can do is keep striving to behave and work and play and perform in a professional manner- we need more people leading by example, and striving for excellence. It's a real shame that some of the most talented musicians in SL let their egos, or as often as not, their manager's egos spoil a show, and it leaves a bad taste in everybody's mouth- keep spreading the word- SL is RL, and RL is SL- sure, some hide in the illusions, and others live out dreams not possible elsewhere, but we're all still real, no matter what masks we show... reward the ones that put forth the effort to live up to their word, and always push the positive energy to the forefront.
ReplyDeleteSpot on!
DeleteVERY well stated! SL mimics RL in SO many ways and even through my own conversations with others, some hold fast to the opposite when in fact it is obvious and true.
DeleteAs I had tried in the past to introduce a very thorough and thought out cover charge system to benefit the venues as much as the artists, it was not taken for what it was and instead, the mud slinging began. Isn't it about time to recognize what and where we are?
In SL venues can't sell drinks... PERIOD! Other than that, whats the real difference to a venue in RL? THE MAIN difference is that SINCE SL venues can't sell booze, they don't have that revenue stream.
Many artists were afraid they'd lose their audiences. Well tell me, two years later, are you still even performing?
Really friends... PLEASE let's wake up and stir the pot.The coffee's already brewed and it's just standing idle... spoiling.
I'm still performing after 6 and a half years... and I'm still not sure what it would take for SL's music scene to start moving away from the 'Patronage' system, where venue owners are our most valued patrons, paying the larger portion of our fees, while we rely on tips from the audience patrons to fill it out- unfortunately, people still work on two different economies- we the working musicians who try to feed ourselves with our work are on the RL economy, while most in SL are still on the SL economy, where 1 dollar US can buy a (badly made) house... and many venue owners over-reach, and find themselves hemorrhaging cash.... and as for longevity... pacing, not letting kind words over-inflate the ego, keeping it about the music, not about the personalities, maintaining integrity and professionalism, and once again, pacing yourself can go a long way towards sustainability.... I'll never understand how some can play 6 shows a day- 1 or 2 will leave me a quivering pile on the floor... and coffee never spoils! ... it just burns to crispy!
DeleteThank you for putting into writing what so many SL business owners experience. I too take my business seriously and have worked hard keeping it that way. What happens backstage stays backstage. As owner of a live venue, and my partner a SL DJ, we experience the lack of professionalism way to often.
ReplyDeleteThanks again Brandy, well said!
As the manager of the Drunken Drow, which is one of the older venues in SL now, it is all to common to have a performer cancel at the last minute, not show up without warning, or have one say,"It's just a game, so what?" Yes, to some people it's a game. To the Drow's owner, it's a business he's claimed on his RL taxes. To some of our performers, it's how they pay their RL bills. To me, it's how I keep my SL home, meet and develop new friends, and enjoy my little slice of SL music. We do have a few performers we can call on when someone doesn't show up, but they're not always available when we need someone.
ReplyDeleteI do everything I can to prepare in advance for the performances I work, even to spending my own L$ to decorate should a performer request a specific theme if they're promoting something new they're doing. I will go above and beyond the "requirements" of my position to make the performers' appearance at the Drow as much of a simple and successful one as possible. I don't see that it's too much to ask for them to at least appear or make contact if they can't.
I understand First Life is priority, that's a reasonable thing to expect. I also expect common courtesy one would give an acquaintance if unable to fulfill an agreement. The same applies to my business and my RFL work. What surprises me is that it's often NOT the younger crowd that fails to meet their obligations, but those who are old enough to have learned responsibility and who expect it from others.
It's simply baffling to me.
~ Olliekins
My livelyhood for real life comes from SL. I am sole caregiver to my ailing father who needs constant care 24/7. This mention of Bus practices is an absolute GIVEN! Business is business be it in Second Life or in Real Life. SL has TOS and that in itself is a contract. Therefore we in here have the right as business owners ( whatever the business may be ) to hold our clients to the contract. Though most of the time these contracts are verbal I myself have started asking people for aggreements in notecards along with an email verifying services. This works both ways. It covers the Client AND the Business, again no matter the business. Things can be altered of course but if these things are shown coming from the other person they will stand up. It is a few extra steps but it is worth it in the long run. Thanks Brandy for bringing this up.
ReplyDeleteHear hear! You have also said exactly what I have thought at times. Frogg and I have also experienced a lack of seriousness when it comes to these things. We always hold judgement until we find out what really happened (and there have been times where a venue host wasn't able to reach the venue and set the land music stream or allow us to rez our equipment, but they had a flat tire, or couldn't make it home due to weather, and those things are totally understandable). When you mention contracts, it reminds me of the venues that I really love: The ones that send a confirmation contract to us, explaining the dates/times and what's expected of us. That's outstanding! I wish more would do that. Yeah, it's a game to some, but to people like my musical partner Frogg, it's their livelihood. It really hurts when people treat it like they can just turn off the PC and it all goes away, like a dream.
ReplyDeleteAs a performer, I treat my gigs in SL as I do in RL. A contract is a contract is a freaking contract. Abide by them or don't hire me. Period. I've canceled shows before because they didn't list the event, but yet the venue looks at me like I'm the bad person. Hey it's the venue who made the contract null and void by not following the terms and conditions of the freaking CONTRACT. The most common way we all look for a show to go to is by searching in live events. We all usually turn off all notices and once we close out an IM box from one of the music groups...we won't get another until we decide to open up that IM box again or relog. So, most of the community relies heavily on those listings. Ohh and one more thing to people who list events and follow the other terms of the contract...THANK YOU! There's a reason why you have your top venues in SL and then the ones that will soon close because they're being ran by a bunch of !@#$%^& idiots. Also, just a tid bit to some venues...it's more important to list the artists name in the event title rather than the name of your venue. If you can fit both, great. But if not...the artists name should be in the title.
ReplyDeleteI definitely appreciate this post. As a performer, I would offer that SL notices and events are not the only way to get word out about your events and concerts. Brandy and I also rely on Facebook, Twitter and lately more and amore are using Second Friends as you can join free, list your events free, create your own group free and send notices free. Other tools are available but with over 20,000 page views and growing, lots of people are looking.
DeleteAlso if you do join and create your own group, I invite you to contact Brandy / Kalli Birman or myself Mankind Tracer, and one of us will provide you with a banner you can rez out at your SL shows that will link to your Second Friends group. Just provide us with the actual URL to your SF Group along with its name and we'll get the banner to you.
You can find the link to Second Friends now on the SL Destination Guide: http://secondlife.com/destination/second-friends
But here is the direct link: http://www.second-friends.com
Best of luck. Let me know if you need any help.
ahhh, but I've seen a definite drop in audience with no listing in events- it's a small thing, but crucial, and telling- having a 'we reserve the right to reschedule if there is no listing in events' clause in your initial booking info can go a long way toward stopping those nasty looks...
DeleteNAMES!
ReplyDeleteI want NAMES so I know who NOT to do business with and make "non-refferals" for!
I don't make amy sort of money any more from my secondlife ventures - mostly because people don't treat the people they employ with any sort of respect or consideration. My main business is makeovers for male avatars - an image consultant if you will. I do not produce anything except a unique, personalised avatar for the client, to this end I've spent years building up contacts with designers. Perfecting a look for someone takes hours of work - not just the consultations, but the bits they don't see, my research, my scouting trips and in some cases my negotiations. Generally my clients will have spent between 10 and 20 thousand L$ on their look. I am begrudged L$1000 for my time and trouble. All of the writing gigs I've done (and still do, I have never ever been paid for, or even offered payment for, even though I produce good and work to dead lines. So the unprofessionalism cuts both ways I don't work in SL anymore, because I tend to end up feeling exploited in spite of my professional attitude.
ReplyDeleteI think that's a damn shame and it comes under many guises. I am a firm believer that if you work, you should be paid a decent wage for both the time put in and the actual product you are providing.
DeleteThis kind of %$#@*@ makes me sad to think how many others who work very hard may be being taken advantage of. Look at how many incredibly talented performers there are in SL who are being paid a measly $L3000 for their show. Please understand, it's not just an hour of performing, it's also the event posts, the notices and other marketing and promotions that are being done by the artist for YOUR venues. $11 USD? For two hours? REALLY? These are professionals! These are people with families! While some will say they do it for the love of performing, well that's great but the other 90% and the many I've spoken to personally who say tips are way down as well, well come on!
$L do not equal $$ yet in many people's minds, paying someone a whopping $10,000 or $40 for a week's worth of work is a lot?
The psychology of $L vs $$ could stand a kick in the butt and hopefully another kick in the butt to those who think that $L equate to Dollars.
The essence of these blog posts are about contractual obligations. It is my simple opinion that if you hire someone, pay them for what they are doing as 'Business Ethics" dictate, not as the $L exchange rate does.
... you forgot to mention that some performers also spent many years studying and training and practicing to perfect their craft... that's another thing that makes a performer asking only for the price of a pizza in return for an hour's worth of their life's work a very small asking price.... (and don't even get me started on how much more people are paying for services in sex sims... - are we less valuable than escorts?
DeleteVery interesting Blog post! and it's a point that is becoming more important in SL. The mix of professional and casual SL residents is a hard one to work out. And also the freedom of which SL is sold on is hard manage expectations. I run a venue but not a very active one in terms of the number of shows we do. I make it realistic with my RL job. But still respect agreements as much as I can. I always pay artists for their time and pay well as I repsect the time they are giving to a performance. But indeed I have had times when an artist does not return that respect. Over the years I have been here I have watched with interest how people have tried to make the community work in a specific way. But this never seems to work. On the whole SL seems to attract very inderpendant minded people. And its like trying to herd cats! people here are too free in how they choose to interact in SL. And in a way I repsect that, but have been at the other end when it does not work out. So if I'm honest I'm on the fence with this one. In a way I almost think there are two class of people here. Casual and professional residents. And the two should not really mix when it comes to business interaction. But I don't think either side should try and make the other conform to the others point of view. As you state this is about a contract agreement. If money is changing hands there needs to be a very clear line of expectation. Maybe people just have to wtite things into their deals. So if an artist does not turn up on time there is a reduction in their rate. If they don't turn up I think their should be a cancelation fee. Once or twice in about 5 years I have had to cancel a concert but I have paid the artist the money that was agreed. I think it would be fare that if the artist canceled the concert they should pay the venue owner. Time and effort goes into marketing a performance and host costs and so on. I think the only real way to deal with this is to be more contract based. More terms and conditions when exchanging money. This means people are clear about whats going on but people then still have the very important freedom to not do business with someone else. The real clash is business and freedom here. I shall watch this blog with interest. Many Thanks Kaya
ReplyDeleteWheras we totally agree a contract should be valued on both sides it is sad to see the empire building single sided promotion that some `business ` people do. I presume a musician did not turn up to do a gig without a message? That is not on. However SL `managers` and venues need to support all artists equally and promote in SL and RL. Be assured you can always blow the unrelieble musician out but the choice of musicians to play appears to be in the interersts of the empire:)Otherwise SL music will never be taken seriously.
ReplyDeleteThe other perspective, likely to be very unpopular in this crowd;
ReplyDeleteWhile its good to engage in what one does with a sense of professionalism at the end of the day most of those one encounters in a video game are treating it like, a video game.
If I made my RL income from say, playing a healer in World of Warcraft; I would have to couple my sense of dedication and professionalism to my craft with the acceptance that most of my customers did not take what I did seriously.
It might be frustrating, but that would just be the way it was.
Second Life is not all that different for the vast majority of its users. They 'buy the products' or 'go to the shows' for entertainment and socialization - but take it even less seriously than they would doing the same thing at a Halloween costume shop or a local art-house community theater.
- And at the end of the day, the 'Live music scene' in SL is the community theater, not the televised stadium nor Broadway. Your actors, dancers, stage hands, directors, etc - will view it more as a hobby than a career; and the audience is there as much to cheer on their fellows and friends as to be entertained.
Sure the costume designer for the local production of McBeth might not have a day job and so might take it very serious - but everyone else in the production does...
SL, for most folks, is more a combined game and social platform than it is a business - and even for the business folks in SL; almost all of that is the business of supporting gamers / socialites.
After reading the comments and the synchronous blog of MK it would be appropriate to post in an un censored blog like this:) The delusional idea that 350k `eyes` see an advert and only 40-70 people turn up at a gig is absolutely....well delusional. The idea that this SL is some place to build a world brand is delusional. The idea the real world will give a SH@@@ is delusional. And the idea that someone thinks they run SL music by continues spamming is delusional. Get SL music in perspective and support it without only supporting an individuals ambition. And if you have a contract to play...then fullfill the contract or decline in a nice and informed way.
ReplyDeleteYes, I will not censor your post, however, I do disagree with it. Seth and I do professional PR and Marketing and only we know what all groups in the various places that we post to and the total number of people in those groups that see our posts. There are people in real life that do care, RL companies come into SL because it is a great way to promote to a global audience. No one thinks they RUN SL music... Seth and I are both people who contribute to the music industry in SL and have had much success and are not afriad to express our opinions and help people when we can.
DeleteI would also like to add that Seth and I give our opinions with out hiding our identities. We take the risk that people might disagree with what we are saying, but that is okay because everyone is entitled to their own opinions but we still take that chance. I'm not sure how much credence I will give to someone who cannot publically state that they disagree.
We are Occupy SL music. After many years as SL music fans we will take you seriously when we see MK at one single gig that is not his.......The constant `we help sl music` is really not viable. Partake and be truely be a part of SL music. :) and a sense of humour helps
DeleteI guess you're not out at many gigs but I do go out to other artists shows as often as I can. I was just at Max's show at Sweet Whispers last night. The fact that you haven't seen me just tells me that you aren't at the same shows I go to... nothing more.
DeleteWhy don't you go take a look at how many artists and DJ's are interacting on the SL Social Network that I created FOR SL.
As for a sense of humour, well if you're around me enough, I think you'd change your tune. I have a REALLY big funny bone!
As for your first comments about things being delusional, all I can say is you could stand a bit of training in Business and Marketing and gain a better understanding on the limitations of SL from both a business and technological standpoint.
DeleteI'd also like to say that these posts were not meant to open doors to the inevitable mud slingers who want nothing more than to be able to say they posted something negative in response. Brandy and I are not hiding behind an "Anonymous" tag. We believe in what we're doing. It comes from a good place with good intent. I'm certainly not going to sit here and rattle off things we've accomplished nor will I take a defensive posture... I really just don't have the time. We have a history of helping venues and musicians as well as other businesses in SL. THat's all I'm going to say.
DeleteStrap on your cojones and stand up and be recognized. Good luck to you and God Speed!
Occupy SL Music doesn't tell me who you are, so you are still hiding.
DeleteWe must endevour to go to even more gigs than we do every day.
DeleteWe have monitored the interaction of the SL (MK) Social Network sites
We think you have a great sense of humour
We conclude the last comment about `gain better understanding` ...etc is hilarious...(and part of the point)
and most importantly. If we are talking crap (which we may be doing) why is this the only post that has a reply :) some buttons have truth attached :)
Well look here "We". If you ever decide to come out of the closet and stop hiding, then I'll take "We" seriously. For now, I'm not gonna waste my breath on someone to afraid to come out of the shadows and say who they really are.
DeleteAnd by the way... "Occupy"? REALLY? That's like so last month!
`Last month` may insult the many people who strive for change
DeleteIf this was an individual voice....as you hope...it would be posted.
`WE` are many people channeled through this post, and is not meant to be insulting , but honest thoughts.
Just like the the CIA it is more important to know the messenger than to think about the messenger`s points .... we are off now to hack :)
DeleteI love this, thank you for expressing it. I own a venue and I have very high standards. Much of my time in SL is centered around several things; a. creating a venue with feeling that patrons go "wow" about and artists love to play at, b. promoting my venue and my artist (yes, my artists, I think of it as a team), and c. ensuring value is created for everyone. Having said that, I will only hire and PAY (because everyone deserves to be paid) artists that add to the feeling and/or will provide a professional performance and and understand the value of a contract. Show up early, wear the tag, be ready to put on a show, and be willing to work as hard as I do in the promotion of YOU. If you miss shows beyond reason or give a bad performance repeatedly, you won't be asked back and you will be told why. Make me a bitch? yup. Make me provide quality to both patrons and artists, you bet. PAY ARTISTS, no more tip only venues. It's cheap. Ok, I"m done. :)
ReplyDeleteThere's a reason for tip only venues...
DeleteVenues have no revenue stream. Its not like in RL where they can charge a cover and sell drinks.
In SL, frankly, the artist should be paying the venue - opposite of RL, because all of the means of generating revenue flow to the artist naturally - even though the venue is providing that artist the means by which to reach the public.
Ie: In RL an artist provides traffic for a venue, so it can make money off the visitors.
In SL, a venue supplies traffic to an artist, so the artist can make money off the visitors.
SL Artists need to start paying venues, if they want to keep places to perform at around.
ps: Blogger and Wordpress seem to be fighting over something of late... OpenID for me on every blogger blog has failed for the past few days...
@ Pussycat.... I do think that some tips only venues are well run and do promote the artist but those are few and far between. Often the paying venues don't even promote well.
DeleteGood established musicians bring traffic. It's the new ones or the not so great ones that need the venues traffic. There are musicians who do pack venues from their fan base and their promotions. Very often in the past 3+ years since I have been managing musicians and venues, I have noticed that there are venues that are bad at promotion and there are musicians and managers that are bad at it. It really is a two way street. Venues should be doing all they can to promote and so should the musicians.
I agree that venues have to chance to make money unless people tip or the venue owner has stores but for a tips only venue, they have very little expense. They pay tier and tip the musician (sometimes not even very well). These venues often times cater to new or less established musicians or musicians who do not draw well.
Seth and I are both firm believers that SL should have a cover charge. Musicians wouldn't get paid a few then, they would get 80% of the cover and the venue would get 20% and each would keep their own tips and then everyone makes money. However, venues and musicians are afraid to try it but isn't it worth 250-300L to go see your favorite performer streaming live when you don't have to change clothes, get dolled up, buy drinks, pay for a sitter if you have kids? 250L is one US dollar... and hour of live music for ONE DOLLAR? Where else could you find that?
if I'm going to play at a tips only venue, I have some basic expectations- 1.) I will not start playing to an empty room, as the venue should do at least something other than simply provide a place- if venue owners insisted on getting paid by musicians, then only musicians would be venue owners, since .. well, why pay a stranger when you can pay LL for your own land? 2.) I will be treated as a valued asset, as opposed to a 'flesh colored jukebox' - do you have any idea how much people are paying for sex in sl? upwards of 10,000L for an hour- that's two people, no audiences.
DeleteI like your point Pussycat. Why are there tips only venues, really only two reasons: 1. you are a Gutherie's who can bring a crowd, 2. you can't afford to pay. Both know that the sole drive of a musician is to gain listenings, awareness, etc. If a venue brings a huge audience for the musician then logic shows the musician should pay the venue. But it's not that simple. Having said that, I do believe there is a place for tips only and a place for value in both venues that pay and musicians that take payment. Sorry, if you are worthy of a few venues paying you to perform, you need to stand up and demand you get paid for all gigs unless they are charity. As an example, I only pay musicians. I have a high standard for quality as well. But we plan on having a "new artist showcase" at some interval. They will still be paid, just not full price of a big performer.
DeleteDottie's place as an exception due to what she brings to the table. Musicians need to stop playing tips only if they charge others. Demand that the venue work as hard as you do. Or not, whatever.
DeleteCream rises to the top, both in venue and performer.
The object we're talking about is as old as SL itself, at least. As an SL Club Manager with some experience, I came to the conclusion that in order to start and maintain a successful venue you need a few elements which are:
ReplyDeleteA) Technical skills
B) Constructive attitude and Teamwork spirit
C) A problem-solving and listening approach
D) Managers who lead by example and not by orders
E) A mix of inworld-outworld promotion
F) A fine overall design of the venue or the SIM
The presence of these qualities will lead inevitably to the build-up of a successful and fun-loving community which is actually what keeps Clubs going, as many people want to listen to fine music, true, but ultimately they come to have a fine time, have a nice chat and meet new people.
As for attitude (which would be summarized under point B of my personal list), I'd say that it is the most important point. That goes for showing up on time, but also for avoiding bringing personal issues in public, approaching Guests who have the wrong attitude in the right way and so on. It's true that SL is not a game or a huge RP playground, but it is a Community and the way you carry yourself on SL, speaks aloud about your RL too. That's also why I distrust those who view SL as an escape from their RL vs. those who tend to embrace the fun and networking spirit. There are some people (DJs and Staff) we know that don't care to embrace our set of values and who solely rely on their technical skills, thinking this quality alone will open all the doors. Wrong, in our case. We won't let them in no matter how good they are, as their presence will have a disruptive effect on the whole Community and will make us waste precious time and energies over solving issues. Thanks for reading
I just want to say this, if you get rid of tips only venues then that means Guthries too, if you don't know Guthries then you don't know as much about the music scene in sl as you think you do. Artists and audiences love Guthries. I can wear three hats, as I am a performer, and regularly watch other musicians there too, I also co run a venue. On talking to a couple of other venue owners, it was said to me, that it is just such a pity venue owners don't help and support one another instead of back biting about who is paying who and why. It should be remembered that no artist can be forced to play if they don't wish to, but for some who do not play main stream music, tips only venues provide them with a show.Paying venues often won't hire them as they don't get enough lindens back through venue tipping. I have watched though, and maybe their audience is small and not wealthy enough to offer large tips, yet the folks who go to see the less popular musicians seem to be having a good time, what right has anyone to knock that, or try to stop it. My feeling on all this is, to each his own,and do what you will but harm none. My partner and I work just as hard as anyone to promote the artists who play for us and to reward them as well as we are able, even from our own pockets if that is required.We do it to spread a little good feeling to those who play for us and those who come to see them, not for what we can get.
ReplyDeletePlease leave the SL music scene alone, it has some truly wonderful people in it doing amazing things for one another, and others, less fortunate than themselves. I feel honoured to be a small part of it, paid or not.
When I first read this blog I understood it to be about behaving responsibly and professionally to the folks we come into contact with in SL not to start taking a pop at other venues who don't have the luxury of a large budget. I have played a lot of tips only venues as well as paying ones, and I can't say I was treated any better by those that paid than those who gave a tip only. It really is very simple, if you do not like the way you have been treated then don't go back, chalk it up to experience and move on.
tips only venues are great for amateur musicians, and they're a HUGE part of the live music scene - but some of them do actually run more listeners AWAY from the live music scene... we need more listeners, not more musicians.
DeleteI have been reading this blog and the subsequent comments with great interest. Ground Zero is entering its fourth month of operation as a paying venue. We had to consider whether or not we could sustain our business model over a long term and we have made it work so far. I do think that there are people who open a venue and think that they don't need a business model if they aren't paying their performers. That couldn't be further from the truth, and speaks to the matter of professionalism. Professionalism is not the same as stuffiness, contrary to popular belief! I wonder how many people would try to open a music performance venue in RL with all the expectations and expenses and requirements that go with that. There are some who seem to think because it doesn't cost a ton of RL money to do this in SL that they can "give it a try" without doing a lot of research into what the SL live music "market" can bear. I certainly would NOT put a venue like Guthries in that category. To me it is an attitude of professionalism that matters, not whether a venue pays the artists. (although it is hard for me to accept the fact that there are a small number of performers who will not negotiate their higher than average fee with me but will play a number of tips only gigs each week... like I can afford to subsidize the tips only gigs they play) There is the matter of saturation of live music performers and venues - looking at "Live Music" in events at SL peak hours can bring up 30 - 60 events PER HOUR! At that point what can people really expect in terms of attendance for each venue? By the nature of that alone, we are undercutting every other venue that is running a show at the same time. I think that there is room for all different types of venues in SL much like there are a range of places in RL. But in RL we don't compare a local coffeehouse to the Viper Room or another popular nightclub. They are two different things! We don't expect to pay a cover charge to go to some and others we are happy to pay. Everyone accepts those differences in RL and don't seem to think one should exist over the other. However, in SL, a live music venue is a live music venue. All are treated the same. I think professionalism in SL does matter, especially for musicians who choose to cross promote their RL and SL musical experiences, something that is becoming more and more common. We as venue owners as well as performers can do a lot so that the people who are not in SL don't see it as a joke when someone says they perform in SL. To me, it is important to share the SL music community with non-SL folks through social media outlets and representing what we do in the best possible light. Music in SL is a strong, vibrant community with a myriad of aspects and levels of performance. Showing ALL levels of that in a professional manner and making it appealing for people to explore music performance in SL is pretty important in my opinion. I guess I should go write my own blog on this topic instead of hijacking Brandy's post.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it would be really nice if the people who posted such thoughtful comments on all sides of this discussion would actually sign their posts even if they are logged in anonymously.
~TheaDee
Co-owner, Ground Zero Music and Art
Spot on Thea, I can't tell you enough how I agree with you.
ReplyDelete